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Bishop Strickland, thank you so much for doing this. What do you make of the closure of the Church of the Holy Supplr by Israeli authorities on Palm Sunday?0:14
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Well, really, Tucker, um I probably some things have developed even since the last thing I saw, but it looked like0:22
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they were deciding to open it after all or whatever. Um, to me really Tucker,0:28
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this comes down to a consequence of the the evil that we see that we're witnessing. Um, and I think we need to0:37
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pay attention to it in that context. As we already discussed, the the largecale0:45
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destruction of civilian life is is never morally justifiable by any nation, by0:52
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any entity, by for any reason. It's just not. And to me, the the closure of the holy supplr, the holy side for us,1:01
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there's so many in the holy land, but the closure of that and the not allowing the procession of Palm Sunday is is a1:10
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tragic consequence of just how far off the mark really the world is at this point in so many ways and what's going on there. We must speak calmly,1:23
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lovingly, clearly that no, we can't allow this. And the closure to me is1:31
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just one of many tragic consequences where um1:37
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the this has to be addressed. And we've got to keep going back to that principle1:44
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that the largecale destruction of civilian life can never be morally justified.1:52
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Amen. And I'm I'm glad to hear at least one religious leader in the United States say that so clearly. I think that any believing Christian would agree with2:00
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that as a as a foundational part of the faith. Um, but you're hearing just the opposite. And I want to ask you about2:08
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that in just a minute. But but you're you don't seem like you believe that the Church of the Holy Supplr was closed for quote safety reasons.2:19
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Well, u I really don't know, Tucker. Um,2:23
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and and maybe for some making those decisions, that's the reason. But why is it2:30
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why would it be judged to be a place that is unsafe because of this chaos that surrounds it? Um so like I said I2:39
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think it's a it's a consequence of of everything we're seeing which is immoral and is2:46
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destructive to humanity in I mean and in very significant ways. uh you're a man2:53
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of history and we all need to be people of history. And if we look at history,2:59
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these days will be marked in history as a very devastating time similar to3:07
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things that we can look back in the last 100 years, 200, 2,000 years. that when3:15
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these kind of moral um aberrations begin to just take over, we need to speak up.3:24
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And I really don't know um the motivation for the closure of the holy3:31
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suppler. I mean, I can surmise a lot of things they the the possible reopening or partial that I've heard about. I don't know if even that's accurate.3:41
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That's part of I know what you're fighting and what we're all fighting is so much misinformation, so many false3:48
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messages. It's really hard to know what what is true.3:52
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And that's why I think it's so important and I will be a broken record repeating we can never justify the largecale4:02
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destruction and devastation of civilian life um as morally justifiable. We can't do that. And I think we have to keep4:11
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going back to that home base with all the chaos that we're all dealing with.4:18
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I I think one of the things that we can say is that Christianity targeted or not, the core tense of Christianity,4:26
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whether on purpose or not, is often in the crosshairs. We know that I believe talking to people in Jerusalem this morning that there were no synagogues4:36
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completely closed. Um and we know that the church of the holy supplicer was not closed during the last two world wars.4:44
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We know that the idea was to have um a Catholic leader and three others in there for a live stream service and that4:52
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was banned. So it's it's hard to understand how this was done for safety reasons. And moreover, I wasn't aware that the government, the secular4:59
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government of Israel owned the Church of the Holy Supplr or by the way, the Dome5:06
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of the Rock or or any other religious building owned by someone else in East Jerusalem. I mean, where where does this5:14
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authority come from that you can just close someone else's church?5:18
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Well, it I don't think it it is true authority and it is it's you know5:26
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basically totalitarian saying we've got the power, we've got the bombs, we can do what we want. Um,5:35
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and that is again as we look at history and we look at this moment that is about as5:43
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scary as it gets to to have that attitude and sadly we're we're seeing that attitude. We are the ones with the5:52
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power. So we are the ones calling the shots. Forget what is moral. Forget what5:58
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is true. Forget what is historic has historic precedent. I mean, you know,6:04
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I'm I'm sure both of us for several years now, I I get tired of the word unprecedented because we hear it all the6:13
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time, but we're living in unprecedented times. For all the more reason, we need to go back to foundational pillars of6:22
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life and faith. Of course, as a Catholic bishop, Jesus Christ is that pillar that we keep returning to, listening to him,6:33
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looking at the model of his life, which flies in the face of anything violent.6:39
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And that doesn't mean that he was uh not addressing the the terrible issues of6:45
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his I mean, you you mentioned you use the phrase in the crosshairs. cross is where Jesus Christ died. And ironically,6:56
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Tucker, and I'm sure it isn't lost on you, that in my experience as a bishop7:03
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and a priest, Holy Week is always a time where things are in the crosshairs and7:10
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it's different issues and different situations historically. But there's something about Holy Week that calls us7:18
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back to who is Jesus Christ? Do we believe him or not? And if we do, we7:24
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must morally be guided by his light. We must it it suggests that there's something7:33
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else going on here. Um perhaps influenced by the spiritual war ongoing around us that Christians would be the7:40
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target since it is at its core a religion that opposes violence against innocence and the destruction of7:48
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innocence. And so here, I mean, a totalitarian regime, at least as you think of it in your mind, or I do, targets violence against its enemies.7:58
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It's, you know, the threats. There's nothing less threatening than four Christian clergymen standing in an empty church live streaming the sacraments,8:09
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but they went after those guys. So, what does that what does that tell you of all the enemies? Why are they8:16
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really really Tucker? Uh what it tells me is that truth is threatening.8:25
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And if you think about the drama of Holy Week, which we in the Catholic faith are in the midst of, um, when Jesus Christ8:33
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is before Pilate, and that is historic reality for whatever your faith perspective, this Jesus of Nazareth8:41
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stood before Pilate, the leader of the Roman Empire that was stationed there in Jerusalem. And Pilate says, "What is8:51
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truth?" and the the mob that was there,8:56
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Pilate himself, everyone was threatened by this Jesus who we know, we believe9:04
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um is truth incarnate. He is the truth and as he's standing there really Tucker, I think that is what's9:12
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threatening to those who are not living by the truth and humbly seeking the truth, which we all have to do. I don't claim to have it all figured out, but I look to Christ because he is the truth.9:24
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For those who are promoting all of these things, closure of holy sites and attack of innocent people, they are definitely9:34
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threatened by the truth. Not by some propaganda, but by the real truth. They9:42
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find it threatening. And to me that really what Cardinal Pizzavala and the others were going to try to do just a9:49
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live stream very small scale really that was threatening because it's about9:56
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proclaiming truth that really begins to cause people of good hearts whether they10:04
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have faith or not. It causes the human instinct to say, "Wait a minute. What's10:10
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going on?" When they hear truth, that is disruptive. Not in a violent way, but just because truth cuts through it all.10:21
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That's what they're afraid of. I truly believe that. So, we're still in the middle of Lent, inching closer and closer to Holy Week, the days leading up10:28
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to Easter, when we are called to walk alongside Jesus through his suffering, his death, and then finally, gratefully,10:35
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his resurrection. And there's never been a better time to commit to more prayer.10:40
10 minutes, 40 seconds
If that sounds worth pursuing, we sincerely recommend downloading the Hallow app, which we talk about every morning at breakfast in my house. Hallow offers thousands of prayers,10:49
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One of the truths that seems the most threatening is that violence is not the answer.11:26
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And so that Yeah, I'm sorry.11:31
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Well, the power of the world isn't the answer. That is what threatens them and that's what they don't want to get into11:40
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the hearts and minds of just everyday people. They don't want that word to get out there that war isn't the answer.11:50
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Sometimes it I mean the the church the Catholic Church has a doctrine of justifiable war which is pretty strict11:58
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and pretty clear and probably very few wars uh have qualified and there's12:05
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serious questions about this war. I I think it's pretty much unqualified. Um but that's what we have to keep looking12:13
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at. look at the principles and and really Tucker what I would encourage your viewers and all of us I mean I'm just one of the viewers in many12:22
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situations I'm a bishop who doesn't even have a dascese anymore but I do have a apostolic call that I take very12:29
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seriously and I say to myself to you Tucker as a good man seeking truth and all of us who are are in this we need to12:38
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take a breath we need to calm our hearts and we need to simply seek the truth. I believe and I feel12:48
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compelled to proclaim to the world. We know the truth. The truth sets us free.12:53
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It's Jesus Christ. And certainly that was the threat that the Romans and the Jewish leaders wanted to get rid of.13:02
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That's historic reality. They plotted to rid themselves of this truth problem.13:09
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And in in many ways we see the same thing repeated. I mean it gets masked in a lot of ways but yes13:17
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all and I pray daily for the leaders of the world for every nation for leaders to who have the power and the13:25
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responsibility in this moment to go back to those basic principles. They need to take a deep breath and ask themselves,13:34
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is this true? What what I'm promoting,13:38
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what I am doing, is it about the truth that sets us free? And when we ignore the truth, that is when we are the most13:47
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bound by violence and evil. And we're seeing it. It played out in our lifetime right in these moments on the TV screen,13:57
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on our phone screens, on the airwaves.14:00
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We're seeing ignoring truth has consequences. And it comes down to each of us individually.14:08
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When we ignored the truth that I am a sinful man who needs to repent and I need to seek the life that is Jesus14:15
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Christ. When we try to to hide that to ignore it to eliminate it, it doesn't go14:22
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away. It will not be eliminated any more than killing Jesus Christ on a cross in14:29
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the first century eliminated the truth that he is. Truth will not be eliminated. But a lot of innocence can14:38
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be harmed when we think we can avoid the truth and do it our way and do14:45
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it with our power when we go down that path. It's destructive in so many ways even to those individuals that are doing14:54
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it. But the tragedy is there's so many innocents that get lost in it. Um that15:00
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we must speak against innocent lives being just you. The the term is15:07
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collateral damage. But that in itself says we have to be very careful about15:15
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allowing our hearts to hearten that we just used terminology for innocents dying. Oh, they're just collateral damage.15:25
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May May I ask you to go back for a second as a Protestant myself who's often heard the term just war theory15:33
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which I think derives from Augustine but I could be wrong. Um can you summarize that for people who aren't familiar with15:41
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what it is just in broad terms? What's a justified war?15:45
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Well, there are four basic points and I can't claim that I can get all of them as you know it's it's pretty simple most15:53
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of the time the truth is pretty simple but it has to be the just war theory is15:59
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based on if war which should be avoided if at all possible if it is to be justified it has to be proportionate it16:09
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has to be no it can't be preemptive it it it really Tucker goes back in a lot of ways to the right to self-defense.16:19
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The right to self-defense of one person, the right to self-defense of a nation.16:25
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Uh that is really the core of the just war theory. It has to be a real threat,16:32
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not a perceived threat, not a future threat, but a real threat. It has to be in proportion. I mean, you know, putting16:39
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it on the the just personto person context, I mean, somebody slaps you, you16:46
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don't shoot them. That is not proportional. Yes.16:51
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It has to avoid harming um innocents that are really have nothing to do with whatever the conflict is in any direct16:59
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way. Um and and so those basic points are what you have to look at. It has to17:06
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be it has to have a reasonable um expectation of success that this will17:13
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accomplish the protection of innocence that it should be about. Um those points17:21
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are what we have to keep looking at. And like I said,17:26
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um there probably aren't many wars in human history that would qualify as meeting all the criteria. Some meet more17:35
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than others, but I don't know that this present conflict, they're not even calling it a war. And I think that tells us something. But it this present17:45
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conflict I don't know that it qualifies on any of those points because yes there was some threat there but was it17:54
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justifiable to immediately um address that threat which seemed to18:01
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be a future threat that may have been very real. I don't claim to know all of that, but I think the leaders are18:08
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challenged to really look more deeply at that. And certainly the the idea that of protecting innocents honestly I mean and18:17
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again I haven't been in any war rooms or or heard the real discussion but it it18:24
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it seems and what we're seeing it's like we can expect and we can plan for the18:32
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collateral damage which should be always stated as we can plan for innocents to die because of this action.18:42
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um because that's what collateral damage really is talking about. Um so that I18:48
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think is a reasonable probably not the most scholarly uh exposition of the just18:56
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for theory but those are the basic points and again if if people say oh that gets too complicated just think19:02
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about defending yourself defending your home defending your family you can't go out and you know you have a neighbor19:10
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that's talking crazy and go and put a bomb in their front yard I mean that's not proportionate. That is not19:18
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reasonable and it it has to be something that is a reasonable and and I think one of the one of the greatest uh points of19:27
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the just war theory is it going is it likely to be successful? Is it likely to have an outcome that brings more peace,19:37
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more protection, not just to the individuals that you're specifically responsible for, but brings it to the19:44
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world. And so I think that we've got to honestly assess what is happening and19:52
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and acknowledge that no nation seems to be really and and I love the United States. I I was raised as a patriotic20:00
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kid. I still believe in a lot of the principles but when we lose sight of the basic principles of our founding as a20:09
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nation or as of our faith of Christianity or whatever our faith is those basic principles have to guide us20:17
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and we can't allow popular popular opinion or political agendas to override20:25
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those basic moral values that should be the pillars that found us that sha that20:32
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So this morning, the president of the United States, whom I campaigned for and defended daily for 11 years, not21:48
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attacking him, but he issued a statement um threatening to destroy the civilian infrastructure of Iran, including the21:56
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desalinization plants and energy grid of Iran. And that seems to be a threat against innocents. I don't know any22:04
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other way to read it. Um, how would you how would you assess that? Is that consistent with a just war?22:13
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No. And as you said, Tucker, we have to acknowledge that it is22:21
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to directly do that is is wrong, is immoral. Going back to that basic22:27
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principle I started with. Anytime civilian life is devastated,22:36
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it's not morally. It's not done morally.22:39
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It's not something we can just turn a blind eye and say, "Well, we got to do this." Um, the largecale destruction of22:47
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civilian lives is never morally justified.22:51
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Like I said, I I if I'm a broken record making that point, I believe I need to be because22:59
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the more I think about that, the more I pray about that, the more I look at what's happening, it says, "Let's put a23:06
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stop to this. Let's pull back from this." And I understand from you know what I see in the news that there are23:15
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efforts of of talking about some sort of solutions but the talk seems to always23:22
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have much less focus and much less power behind it than the bombs and the the destructive forces. Um, I guess that is,23:34
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you know, by human nature, maybe that's somewhat natural that when you've got the power, it's hard to restrain23:41
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yourself from using it. We see that played out in so many ways. But that is where the moral values have to kick in23:50
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for the individual man or the individual nation and the leader that is a a man or23:57
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a group of men or women and women that are leading a nation. They need to constantly go back to those principles24:04
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and asking themselves, is this justifiable? Is this something that is moral to do? And if it's not moral, then24:14
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we should just put up a big bright red stop sign and say, "We're not going to do this because it is morally24:22
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questionable, much less clearly immoral." And when we go down the path of saying, "Well, we've got to do some24:30
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immoral things." I mean, it's like the end justifies the means. I mean some basic principles of of philosophical24:39
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logical thought that have guided nations and individuals through history. You know if if we get on a path where we say24:49
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the end justifies the means then the means can become so immoral that it's just devastating for not just the24:58
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individuals or the nations involved but for all of humanity. We've got to be very cautious about going down that25:06
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path. And I I'm afraid that many of the things that we've seen have have crossed that line of just saying we believe,25:17
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yeah, this is evil. Okay, it's evil, but we've got to do it for the good end. That is very dangerous territory.25:27
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Also common, I think. I mean, people, as you said, who have power tend to misuse it. An often noted phenomenon because25:34
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it's true. What's different, at least in my lifetime, is seeing self-described Christian leaders not only defend25:43
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violence, but attack anyone who questions its use and then use the Bible to justify it. That So, I guess what I'm25:52
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saying is one of the battles here is over what Christianity is as a faith.25:57
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And that seems to me a very important uh battle. Okay. Certainly a conversation.26:02
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So what you're seeing some Christian leaders do is say, "Well, there's violence throughout the Bible." And God26:09
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justifies it. In some cases, defends it through what the Christians call the Old Testament from beginning to end. There's violence against innocence.26:17
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So it's therefore okay. What is your response to that?26:22
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Well, Tucker, um quite simply, probably not surprising, my response is Jesus Christ.26:31
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Yeah.26:31
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Um if we claim, which I do, and I do my best. I mean, I'm a sinner. I mess up all the time. We do individually if26:39
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we're smart enough to be humble enough to acknowledge that we as nations and we as individuals, we get off the mark. We26:47
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mess up. But we can always repent of that and seek again to follow the truth that is Christ. And that's the26:55
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distinction that I would make. If people are calling themselves Christians, we are of the body of Christ that is his church then and we have to look to him.27:06
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Yes, in the Old Testament there are there are many examples of destructive power but that is is not the world that27:16
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we live in. We believe that Jesus Christ has redeemed everything. And one of the key points of Jesus Christ um and St.27:26
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Paul says it very well, we need we are neither Greek nor Roman. We are not individual nations. We are Christian.27:35
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And to use Christianity as a weapon against one part of his body to another27:43
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part of his body is that's a misuse of the message of Jesus Christ. If we look27:49
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to him, I mean he died on the cross because he embraced that freely as a man27:57
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and as the son of God, but he was willing to do that. He was willing to personally receive the greatest violence28:06
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of destroying his body and his human life for the sake of the peace that he brings. And if we look to Jesus Christ,28:19
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we can't justify the the violence that we're seeing. Um, you can hearken back to the Old Testament, but if you believe28:27
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Jesus Christ is the new covenant that he I mean he came out of that world of the28:34
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Old Testament, he is he of Hebrew origin and we should embrace that. Absolutely.28:42
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That is historical reality. But he came to bring a new covenant and to bring a28:48
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redemption of all of that. And just just one example of what Christ if we look to28:55
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Christ he's often saying yes we used to do this but this is the new way that29:02
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through the father sending me to you is being revealed. It used to be an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. That29:10
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cannot be that way with us. He says to his disciples and we have to really listen to that. We may not like29:20
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listening to Christ himself, but that is what we're called to, especially if we29:27
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call ourselves Christian. That is probably, as you point out, Tucker, one of the greatest issues that we have to29:35
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face now because there are many non-Christians in the world. Um, and for Christianity to be really co-opted and29:43
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hijacked in the way that we're seeing um, is is destructive to the message of29:51
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truth that is Jesus Christ. Because I I can imagine people are saying, "Well, if this is what Christianity is really all29:59
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about, I've had considered it, but I'm not going to even look at Christianity if that's what it's about." It's not30:06
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what it's about. But when voices are saying we can go again going back to30:14
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that basic idea of we can destroy civilians30:20
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violently and in in drastic ways and say that it's moral because we're claiming30:26
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to be Christian. That's nonsensical and it it's as it's as offensive to Christ30:33
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himself as anything could be. He is a man of peace. And that it doesn't mean30:41
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just let yourself be run over. But real peace is about respecting the our lives30:50
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and the lives of others and always seeking without violence to embrace the30:57
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truth that sets us free. So I guess what I would say to Christians that are claiming u sort of Old Testament31:06
31 minutes, 6 seconds
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at checkout for 30% off sitewide. This offer not available anywhere else. It does seem like32:19
32 minutes, 19 seconds
this is an effort to co-opt Christianity and change the world's understanding of Jesus. And it seems like Holy Week maybe32:28
32 minutes, 28 seconds
is particularly hard for people who want to do that because the whole message of Holy Week is the opposite. I mean,32:34
32 minutes, 34 seconds
you're the theologian, but I think Jesus is coming into Jerusalem at a time when it's occupied by foreign pagan authorities. They're oppressing the32:41
32 minutes, 41 seconds
people of Jerusalem. And a lot of people watching assume Jesus was going to liberate the city in some using force.32:49
32 minutes, 49 seconds
He was the king. But he doesn't come in on a waror. He comes in on a donkey and then submits to being tortured to death32:58
32 minutes, 58 seconds
because the victory is larger than a military victory. It's a final victory.33:02
33 minutes, 2 seconds
It's a spiritual victory. And that seems like the message as a you know as a non-33:07
33 minutes, 7 seconds
theologian Protestant that seems like a very clear message. But you tell me is that is that the message?33:14
33 minutes, 14 seconds
Tucker, you are spot on. And that's why I mentioned earlier in our conversation,33:20
33 minutes, 20 seconds
Holy Week is is a week of drama and it's a week of waking up and realizing the33:27
33 minutes, 27 seconds
real message of Jesus Christ. I mean it the whole passion story of Christ is the33:34
33 minutes, 34 seconds
the elements there. I mean we have Judas a Scariot who why did he betray Christ?33:41
33 minutes, 41 seconds
I mean, I don't claim to be able to read his mind or his heart, but the indications are he betrayed Christ33:50
33 minutes, 50 seconds
because he wanted the kind of military leader that many wanted. Christ's34:00
34 minutes
triumphant entry into Jerusalem um is it it's a very interesting scene that we34:07
34 minutes, 7 seconds
need to con constantly go back to and look at in terms of what's really going on. Um just before34:17
34 minutes, 17 seconds
Christ as recorded in scripture, just before Christ enters triumphily into Jerusalem, the the verses are talking34:25
34 minutes, 25 seconds
about the authorities seeking and plotting to assassinate Lazarus, the one34:33
34 minutes, 33 seconds
he had raised from the dead. And so one of the which is one really one of the most it's described in John and it's one34:41
34 minutes, 41 seconds
of the most amazing passages in the entire Bible. Jesus has just raised this man from the dead 4 days after his death. One of the amazing things he did.34:50
34 minutes, 50 seconds
The guy's alive and the religious authorities want to murder him. It's like Sorry, excuse me. It's amazing.34:59
34 minutes, 59 seconds
It it really is. And it it it the drama is right there. We have to see it and recognize the way it continues to unfold35:07
35 minutes, 7 seconds
in our lives. I mean I don't want to label anyone Judas a scariot but we need to to ask ourselves every one of us and35:16
35 minutes, 16 seconds
I include myself we have to be very careful and ask are we beginning to move in a direction that Judas's scariot35:24
35 minutes, 24 seconds
would have approved when we are saying we want hail Jesus uh hail to the son of35:33
35 minutes, 33 seconds
David but we want to shape the son of David according to our agenda.35:38
35 minutes, 38 seconds
That is where it gets very dangerous and it it culminates in in destruction for Judas's Scariot and apparent I mean real35:47
35 minutes, 47 seconds
destruction for Christ because he is truth because he is God's divine son.35:53
35 minutes, 53 seconds
What the world can throw at him can't destroy him because he's beyond creation. He is beyond. He is the lord36:01
36 minutes, 1 second
of creation. But he allows it to happen out of love for all of us. And you know36:07
36 minutes, 7 seconds
in the the con I mean it's just so rich with images that can be beneficial to36:13
36 minutes, 13 seconds
all of us. But for us to hear Christ in this time, in this moment in our history, for the world, for this nation,36:22
36 minutes, 22 seconds
for the Catholic Church, for Christians,36:25
36 minutes, 25 seconds
to hear Christ say to those who are literally in the moment, nailing him to a cross, killing him. Father, forgive36:34
36 minutes, 34 seconds
them. They know not what they do. to have that kind of mercy and compassion in your heart is and we've seen some saints that have have echoed it. St.36:46
36 minutes, 46 seconds
Steven the first martyr echoed his lord in saying that. That that that is again36:52
36 minutes, 52 seconds
going back to where's the threat that is a very threatening sentiment when you36:59
36 minutes, 59 seconds
think when we think when the world thinks that the powers of the world can ultimately prevail to hear the man being37:09
37 minutes, 9 seconds
destroyed by the world saying father forgive them they know not what they do it reminds us that we've got to retune37:18
37 minutes, 18 seconds
our hearts and our minds to the message of Jesus Christ and to face everything we're facing.37:27
37 minutes, 27 seconds
That is it it it it's like Holy Week being played out again at large in our37:34
37 minutes, 34 seconds
time. The the the hidden messages and the the plottings and the confusing. I mean, here we have things being hailed37:43
37 minutes, 43 seconds
as wonderful and then underneath it under the the underbelly is a darkness of plotting the the destruction of37:52
37 minutes, 52 seconds
innocence and the destruction of of lives that really have nothing to do with this. So once again I go back to38:00
38 minutes
that idea of we have to I mean the gauge has to be the largecale destruction of38:09
38 minutes, 9 seconds
civilian life can never be morally justified and you know with Christ I38:15
38 minutes, 15 seconds
mean it was one man but in terms of reality in terms of the universe38:22
38 minutes, 22 seconds
trying to kill Jesus Christ son of God Jesus of Nazareth killing him. I mean they were successful in killing him. He died on the cross.38:32
38 minutes, 32 seconds
But that is largecale destruction of innocent life of civilian life. And that is the principle we just have to keep38:42
38 minutes, 42 seconds
going back to. um to keep really looking through looking at everything through that lens and urging the leaders of38:51
38 minutes, 51 seconds
Israel, the leaders of the United States, the leaders of Europe, the leaders of the world to come together38:58
38 minutes, 58 seconds
and to listen to the words of Jesus Christ, even those who don't believe39:04
39 minutes, 4 seconds
him, because they are true words, they resonate in hearts. if people will just39:12
39 minutes, 12 seconds
listen and really open their hearts to what he's saying. I mean certainly I believe the world will embrace Jesus39:20
39 minutes, 20 seconds
Christ before it ends. That is prophecy and that is logic when the world will39:27
39 minutes, 27 seconds
embrace truth and not everyone we're all left with our free will and that is I mean the free will of the individual and39:36
39 minutes, 36 seconds
large the free will of nations. Um, and we see that in Old Testament. God doesn't necessarily stop the free will39:46
39 minutes, 46 seconds
of nations or individuals from doing something that God knows is contrary to truth. And the consequence of ignoring39:55
39 minutes, 55 seconds
the truth really, I mean, we can see it as God's punishment, but really it goes deeper than that. It's simply40:04
40 minutes, 4 seconds
in conflict with reality. And when we oppose the truth, we're opposing reality and it the consequences will follow.40:14
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Maybe not immediately, but the consequences will catch up with us when we ignore truth. And Tucker, I know that40:23
40 minutes, 23 seconds
the people that you interview as as your life, your career, your your good work of doing your best to share truth.40:31
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You're constantly talking to people who have themselves lived through the consequences and hopefully awakened to the reality. I've got to follow truth.40:42
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When we ignore truth and it I mean it it's in countless ways in our society today but when we ignore the truth we40:52
40 minutes, 52 seconds
get on a path that brings us harm and sadly can the more influence we have the41:00
41 minutes
more that path involves other innocent people the more we can bring we can bring destruction down on the heads of41:08
41 minutes, 8 seconds
the most innocent when we decide I'm going to going to consciously deviate from the truth because I've decided I know better.41:21
41 minutes, 21 seconds
That should be a huge caution ultimately stoplight for all of us. be very careful41:28
41 minutes, 28 seconds
about going down that path because we've seen it in history and we see it in our time. When the individual says, "I'm somehow above or outside the truth,"41:41
41 minutes, 41 seconds
then they may prevail for a moment, but it will always come to destruction.41:49
41 minutes, 49 seconds
There was a controversy six weeks or so ago around a woman called Carrie Peen Bowler who was a member of the41:58
41 minutes, 58 seconds
president's religious liberty task force. Um she was expelled from it.42:03
42 minutes, 3 seconds
Really I from my reading for two reasons. One um she called attention to the deaths of innocents in Gaza and made42:11
42 minutes, 11 seconds
the point that their lives were as valuable as anyone else's. And two, she refused um the basic tenants of Zionism,42:20
42 minutes, 20 seconds
political Zionism um and said that she didn't have to sign up for that as a Christian and she was expelled for that.42:26
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And there were a number of religious leaders, Christian leaders who approved of her expulsion and in fact who made it42:33
42 minutes, 33 seconds
possible. You weighed in on this. Um can you tell us why you why you did that and what you said?42:44
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Yeah, thank you, Tucker. Um,42:47
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well, really again, you know, I'm a simple guy and it comes down to basic simple truth. Ultimately, truth is42:55
42 minutes, 55 seconds
simple. Yes, it's deep. It's rich. It's hard to fathom, but it's not complicated in the way that our world is so often43:03
43 minutes, 3 seconds
complicated. As you said, I think Carrie was removed because they didn't like the truth she was speaking. The truth about43:12
43 minutes, 12 seconds
Gaza, which is verbotened by many. Uh the innocents that have devastatingly died there is just horrible. It truly is43:21
43 minutes, 21 seconds
a holocaust of our time. Um, but she was they didn't like that truth and they43:28
43 minutes, 28 seconds
didn't like the truth of her pushing back against the agenda that is saying this political Zionism is something that43:36
43 minutes, 36 seconds
Christians need to embrace. No, it's not. And the Catholic Church is very clear from everything that I've seen. I43:44
43 minutes, 44 seconds
had a conversation with Carrie before I put out my statement. And uh I had the43:52
43 minutes, 52 seconds
conversation because I was hearing things and I I just wanted to really my intention with reaching out to Carrie43:59
43 minutes, 59 seconds
was just to be a pastor and to offer her some support and some consolation. In the midst of that conversation, she basically challenged me and asked me,44:10
44 minutes, 10 seconds
"Bishop, if if what you're saying, you really believe um your message, my message to her, if I really believed it,44:18
44 minutes, 18 seconds
would I was I willing to publicly speak it." And and I told her I would pray about it and I would consider it. But44:27
44 minutes, 27 seconds
even as I told her that I would pray about it, I knew in my heart that, you44:34
44 minutes, 34 seconds
know, I was, as we say, sometimes Christians say, I was convicted. I I knew that that if I was going to be the44:43
44 minutes, 43 seconds
man I wanted to be, if I was going to be the Christian that I want to be, I had to speak up um and to to not attack44:51
44 minutes, 51 seconds
anyone, but simply say, you know, and what I tried to do in a rather several more words than this, but basically was45:00
45 minutes
say Carrie was removed from that committee because she was speaking truth.45:09
45 minutes, 9 seconds
that the powers that be didn't want to be spoken and because of that we I felt45:18
45 minutes, 18 seconds
the need to speak out for her. Um you know I don't think Carrie claims to be a45:24
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a sinless some sort of perfect woman but she was right in what she was speaking.45:32
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uh you know people can say I mean very often and I know you hear this all the time um you know people will when they45:40
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don't like the truth that's being said they'll very often go after the tone and and it's human to for the tone to get a45:49
45 minutes, 49 seconds
little elevated when we're speaking truth that especially when it's being opposed I know I can personally confess45:57
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that sometimes I that happens we can When we're facing46:04
46 minutes, 4 seconds
push back against something we know deeply in our hearts to be the truth, we can hopefully not get violent, but we46:12
46 minutes, 12 seconds
can get very animated in how we're doing that. But and I think that that's what people really pretty cleverly will say,46:21
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"Oh, well, it was the tone." Well, yeah,46:24
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sometimes the tone, but sometimes it may be appropriate when truth is being ignored. we need to get attention46:32
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sometimes and again looking to Christ as the model. Um I mean he said love your46:39
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enemy but he also was willing to call a spade a spade. And when the the leaders46:48
46 minutes, 48 seconds
that he was speaking with were clearly not in the line of truth, he was willing to to get pretty animated in the way he46:57
46 minutes, 57 seconds
spoke to them and said things like, "You brood of vipers." I mean, I think that was actually John the Baptist, but47:05
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Christ said those kinds of things to the leaders because that's what truth47:13
47 minutes, 13 seconds
demands sometimes. it. We should not return to violence in order to stand for the truth, but we should do it with47:20
47 minutes, 20 seconds
vigor, with strength. And to me, that's where where Carrie was rejected47:28
47 minutes, 28 seconds
primarily because they didn't want her to speak that truth. And they, you know, as as and you've seen it. So, well,47:36
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you're I think you're an example,47:37
47 minutes, 37 seconds
Ducker. I mean, you you were a man speaking truth and they tried to silence you. Carrie was speaking truth. They47:44
47 minutes, 44 seconds
tried to silence her and ultimately it backfires. When it's when it is truth when a when someone or a group is47:54
47 minutes, 54 seconds
speaking truth trying to oppose that it does backfire.48:00
48 minutes
I think of Galiel in the Acts of the Apostles a Jewish leader who said you all need to be careful. If if this is of48:09
48 minutes, 9 seconds
God you'll find yourself finding God. If it's not of God, then it'll go away on its own. What GLiel is saying, truth48:19
48 minutes, 19 seconds
lasts. Truth prevails. Truth continues because of the essence of what it is. It48:26
48 minutes, 26 seconds
is truth. And we see that over and over again when truth is being proclaimed and48:34
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whatever powers of the world try to squelch that truth, try to silence it.48:40
48 minutes, 40 seconds
So often I mean Jesus Christ, what is the whole drama of Jesus Christ? The world, the powers that were in the first48:49
48 minutes, 49 seconds
century tried to eliminate him. And where are we now in the 21st century? He48:56
48 minutes, 56 seconds
is still that voice of truth that can and should guide us. So Carrie was49:05
49 minutes, 5 seconds
removed as one voice echoing the truth that is Jesus Christ. She was removed because of that and look what's49:13
49 minutes, 13 seconds
happened. Her voice has grown. I had no idea who Carrie preaching bowler was49:20
49 minutes, 20 seconds
before she got removed. And then I end up making a statement about her. That is a beautiful example of what we all need49:30
49 minutes, 30 seconds
to remember for ourselves in our personal journey against sin and death.49:35
49 minutes, 35 seconds
And in the global journey, we need to remember if it's the truth, it will come out and it will prevail. So, we better49:44
49 minutes, 44 seconds
do our best to stay with the truth. I love the image of the plum line of truth that comes from Old Testament prophets49:53
49 minutes, 53 seconds
to to stay with the truth. I waver. I weaken. I'm a sinner. But I do my best to return to that plum line of truth.50:03
50 minutes, 3 seconds
And that's what we need to do as individuals and as nations. We need to constantly be willing to challenge50:12
50 minutes, 12 seconds
ourselves. Am I in whatever way avoiding or trying to obfiscate the truth? And to50:19
50 minutes, 19 seconds
the degree that I'm doing that, I'm sinning. I repent. I ask forgiveness and I get back to the truth.50:28
50 minutes, 28 seconds
What kind of response did you get to the statement that you wrote about Carrie preaching?50:36
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I'd have to say overwhelming. I mean,50:38
50 minutes, 38 seconds
I've been on X even when it was back when it was Twitter. Um, and I've had some things that I've said that have gotten significant response.50:49
50 minutes, 49 seconds
Um, you know, I don't even know what you call the numbers that you see, but whatever the the biggest number there is50:57
50 minutes, 57 seconds
close to a million at this point of people. Um, and sometimes those numbers don't all necessarily mean that people51:04
51 minutes, 4 seconds
are in agreement, but the vast majority of people have said, "Thank you for being a bishop, a successor of the51:12
51 minutes, 12 seconds
apostles that was willing to speak to this." Um, and you know, Tucker, over and over again, and I can imagine, I51:21
51 minutes, 21 seconds
mean, you're in a in a large, you have a big voice in today's world, and I know you know that, and and I know you do your best to take that responsibly,51:30
51 minutes, 30 seconds
which we have to. I'm the first to be surprised to have a million51:38
51 minutes, 38 seconds
acknowledgments of what I've said. For the most part, very positive. So, the response has been tremendous. And it51:45
51 minutes, 45 seconds
it's I mean the words I believe the words that I posted I believe they came from prayer they came from real51:53
51 minutes, 53 seconds
consideration of the truth that I believe in but it wasn't my words that people are really responding to. It's52:01
52 minutes, 1 second
truth. People are hungry. They are starving. There is a a a worldwide52:09
52 minutes, 9 seconds
famine for the truth. Thankfully it's there. We can find it, but we have to fight for it sometimes. And that's what52:18
52 minutes, 18 seconds
I saw in the response is people are grateful when a voice and you know I and52:24
52 minutes, 24 seconds
when Carrie and I spoke, you know, it God has blessed me in tremendous ways and really Tucker, I mean, we've never52:32
52 minutes, 32 seconds
met, but I see you our story is very similar. Um, you they tried to cancel52:40
52 minutes, 40 seconds
you. I mean back in in the culture when people speaking truth were getting cancelled and what has happened your voice has grown and I think it should52:49
52 minutes, 49 seconds
thankfully I mean I know you're not the perfect man but you are a man seeking truth that's how I understand Tucker52:57
52 minutes, 57 seconds
Carlson and because of that they tried to they fired you and they tried to eliminate your voice and that voice has53:05
53 minutes, 5 seconds
only grown the same thing for me I'm a bishop removed from his dascese And my voice has grown. I mean, I still53:14
53 minutes, 14 seconds
I'm in the the kid from East Texas, but my voice of doing my best to be faithful53:22
53 minutes, 22 seconds
to the truth and to be willing. And that's I think where both of us can stand together.53:29
53 minutes, 29 seconds
We've been willing to speak the truth when it wasn't popular, when it was sometimes um threatening to to be to be53:39
53 minutes, 39 seconds
further consequences if we stay with that voice of speaking the truth. But I think both of us in different ways, I53:48
53 minutes, 48 seconds
can't speak for you, but I can speak for myself. I have to I have to do what I've done. I can't knuckle under and say,53:57
53 minutes, 57 seconds
"Okay, just just quit speaking the truth." I was told to quit it. Stop it.54:01
54 minutes, 1 second
Quit speaking the truth. You were told as well, and I'm sure behind the scenes,54:06
54 minutes, 6 seconds
you could share lots of stories of people saying, "Oh, Tucker, don't you know, calm down. Don't do this. Back off." But we can't. When it's the truth and you know it deep in your heart,54:19
54 minutes, 19 seconds
that is is what Christ was able to do in a a beautifully peaceful way. He endured everything the world could throw at him. And you know,54:30
54 minutes, 30 seconds
in many ways, I haven't had anything thrown at me, but I've been willing to to speak the truth when it wasn't54:38
54 minutes, 38 seconds
popular and when it and basically got me kicked out of the club. But I'm still a bishop. I'm still a successor of the54:46
54 minutes, 46 seconds
apostles. And so it's essential that I continue to speak not my truth. I mean,54:53
54 minutes, 53 seconds
you know, that's where some it gets crazy. People speak of, "Oh, well, that's your truth and that's my truth."55:00
55 minutes
There's truth. And we all have the obligation to seek it, to be willing.55:05
55 minutes, 5 seconds
And I've said this many times, and I say it again. Anytime I speak something that I'm claiming to be the truth, if people can show me that this is not the truth,55:16
55 minutes, 16 seconds
I want to hear that. I don't want to ever be in a position where people are saying, "Oh, well, he's got a big voice,55:25
55 minutes, 25 seconds
so I won't tell him he's wrong on that."55:27
55 minutes, 27 seconds
I want to hear if I'm wrong, but and I I have been. I can be for sure. I'm a, you55:34
55 minutes, 34 seconds
know, man, weak and sinful and and easily confused and easily diverted from the truth, but I keep going back to trying to do my best to proclaim it.55:44
55 minutes, 44 seconds
That's what we're all called to do. And I think I'd say Carrie right there with us as a woman, uh, a mother and a wife55:54
55 minutes, 54 seconds
and a woman with a voice. And once you have a voice, you have an obligation to speak the truth with it.56:04
56 minutes, 4 seconds
You said you're on axe. You're clearly paying attention to what's happening around the world. It's very easy to become discouraged.56:11
56 minutes, 11 seconds
Jesus is under fire. The the the church broadly is under fire. Truth is um56:20
56 minutes, 20 seconds
obviously a target, maybe the main target. So it's discouraging.56:26
56 minutes, 26 seconds
Do you see God moving as a counterbalance to that? Do you see God moving more as evil becomes more obvious?56:34
56 minutes, 34 seconds
Tucker, thank you for asking that question because I think absolutely. I see goodness and beauty and truth,56:47
56 minutes, 47 seconds
changing hearts and moving people in all kinds of ways. That's been one of my blessings. I I'm basically basically am56:54
56 minutes, 54 seconds
I'm an itinerant bishop now who travels all over the place and speaks in different settings and meets people across this nation and really around the57:03
57 minutes, 3 seconds
world and I have seen that goodness in those hearts seeking the truth and of57:11
57 minutes, 11 seconds
course I I believe that God is it's his it's still his world it's still his57:18
57 minutes, 18 seconds
church and he he isn't absent from any of this free will allows us to destroy57:26
57 minutes, 26 seconds
ourselves if we make that foolish choice. But God is always offering the opportunity to each of us individually and to each of us in whatever group,57:37
57 minutes, 37 seconds
whatever definition of of a group of humanity. For us, we're all brothers and sisters. We're all the children of God.57:47
57 minutes, 47 seconds
But I believe absolutely answering your question that God is working in hearts.57:54
57 minutes, 54 seconds
God is working through all of this. I mean, look at all the evil that's been exposed. We We hate it. We're horrified.58:02
58 minutes, 2 seconds
But it needs It's like a a wound that needs to be cleansed, a need a wound58:09
58 minutes, 9 seconds
that needs to be opened up. And the putrified flesh needs to be cleansed.58:15
58 minutes, 15 seconds
That's we're in a time of cleansing, of purification. God is allowing the the truth that has been hidden for so long.58:24
58 minutes, 24 seconds
So much corruption, it just it does get overwhelming. And I've put out messages to encourage people. Don't despair. It's58:33
58 minutes, 33 seconds
so easy to despair. And we see it. I know both of us see it too often,58:38
58 minutes, 38 seconds
especially young people, lives ending sometimes intentionally because they just despair of this dark58:47
58 minutes, 47 seconds
world. But we can never despair. We should be people of hope and acknowledge58:54
58 minutes, 54 seconds
the the evil that's there, but believe that God is with us. Jesus Christ59:01
59 minutes, 1 second
prevails as truth prevails. And I guess that's because I know many of the people that probably listen to you are are not59:09
59 minutes, 9 seconds
people of faith. But again, I would go back to simply truth prevails. When is the truth? And we know I believe that59:17
59 minutes, 17 seconds
Jesus Christ is truth incarnate. Truth walked this earth. And we believe in the Catholic faith, he remains here through59:24
59 minutes, 24 seconds
the sacraments, through the life of of baptized people in goodness living in the world. But truth prevails. And when59:34
59 minutes, 34 seconds
we are willing to challenge ourselves to always go back to the truth, that will59:41
59 minutes, 41 seconds
lead us nowhere but to God. And and so God is working through all of this. And59:49
59 minutes, 49 seconds
there's so much goodness out there that things that have been hidden literally for centuries that are coming to light.59:57
59 minutes, 57 seconds
What comes to mind for me is is an apparition of our lady called Our Lady of Good Success. Um that is in uh Ecuador,1:00:10
1 hour, 10 seconds
Keto Ecuador. It happened shortly after Our Lady of Guadalupe in Our Lady of1:00:17
1 hour, 17 seconds
Guadalupe appeared in 1531 there in Pepia outside Mexico City. the the image1:00:24
1 hour, 24 seconds
of our lady of Guadalupe still is revered there by Catholics and others there of that miraculous appearance.1:00:32
1 hour, 32 seconds
This apparition happened in the 1570s I believe shortly after our lady of Guadalupe. Now what's interesting is the1:00:41
1 hour, 41 seconds
apparition uh it's to a nun uh our lady believe speaks to a nun and this has1:00:48
1 hour, 48 seconds
been approved as private revelation but it is accepted as authentic uh by the1:00:56
1 hour, 56 seconds
church. Um but basically the apparition Mary says to this uh nun mother Mariana1:01:05
1 hour, 1 minute, 5 seconds
that for the 20th and 21st century this will come to light and will help people1:01:14
1 hour, 1 minute, 14 seconds
navigate a world and a church deeply affected by the chaos of not following1:01:22
1 hour, 1 minute, 22 seconds
the truth. I mean that's what it comes down to. We believe the church, you know, is will prevail. The gates of hell1:01:31
1 hour, 1 minute, 31 seconds
will not prevail against the Catholic Church. That is our faith. We believe what Christ says in the gospel and we believe it applies to this church. But1:01:40
1 hour, 1 minute, 40 seconds
that doesn't mean that we human beings and the church has gone through every kind of storm that humanity can come up1:01:48
1 hour, 1 minute, 48 seconds
with. But we believe the church will not be destroyed. So we can't despair. But1:01:55
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what's interesting to me is that this apparition, it it's a sign of the goodness, a sign of the hope, a sign of1:02:03
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God still with us. One of the things that as a bishop, as as a lifelong Catholic, one of the great realities1:02:13
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that I think is always helpful to me is to remember God is timeless. That's hard for us to grasp. We can't really grasp it. How can how can God be outside time?1:02:25
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But he is God is eternal. And so the things unfolding we say, well, this was 400 years ago and now it's happening1:02:33
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now. And how's this work? For God, there is no time. It's simply truth, goodness,1:02:38
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and beauty always flowing from the heart of the trinity. God, father, son, and holy spirit. So keeping that perspective1:02:47
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always reminds us reminds me to to be careful about presuming things about1:02:54
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history because God's outside all of that. I mean history is a is a reality of of the creation that God has given us1:03:03
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which is precious and is good as God says in Genesis. He saw that it was good. But the evil and the bad can come1:03:12
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when we who are created in God's image and likeness begin to ignore truth. That is constantly what it comes down to.1:03:22
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When I sin, I'm ignoring truth. I mean,1:03:25
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we may not say, "Oh, I'm going to go ignore some truth today." But if we trace it back logically, what I'm doing1:03:32
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when I sin in significant or the just small ways, sometimes it's literally telling a lie, ignoring the truth,1:03:41
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pretending that this is the way things are or this is what I've done. But when we ignore truth on the personal level,1:03:51
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on the national level, in the midst of history, when we ignore truth, we are on a destructive path. So we're always1:04:00
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challenged to go back to the truth. And and in this conversation once again I repeat the destruction the want and1:04:09
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destruction of innocence of civilians is never morally justified. That's the1:04:17
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anchor of truth. That's the pillar of truth that we have to keep returning to when we get caught up in the confusing1:04:25
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and chaotic realities that we're all facing. We have to go back to the truth and humbly acknowledge, Lord, I wandered1:04:34
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in significant or maybe just in in basic ways. But the more we allow ourselves to put blindfolds on and ignore the truth,1:04:43
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and I think that's a lot of what's happening right now, it's like, you know, the the political entity that is1:04:51
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called Israel is getting a free pass for facing the truth for whatever reasons,1:04:57
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for political agendas or some kind of co-opted religious idea. But when we ignore the truth that atrocities have been committed against civilians,1:05:08
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against innocents,1:05:10
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then when we won't speak of that like Gaza,1:05:14
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then we're on a dark path and it and it becomes something. It's sort of like the the club of complicity where we say,1:05:24
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"Well, we'll all ignore that truth,1:05:26
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won't we?" And we move forward. And too much of that happens in today's world.1:05:32
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You you wonder why I mean there are you know a lot is written about this. There's a lot of speculation about it.1:05:39
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Why would people intentionally lie in the United States about what everyone can see about the atrocities you just1:05:47
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mentioned? Why would our political leaders do that? Why would many so many of our religious leaders do the same? And there all these theories, well,1:05:54
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they're being paid off or those are not adequate explanations from my perspective. It does feel like, and1:06:02
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there are instances of this, Paul alludes to this in Galatians,1:06:07
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that there's it's almost like there's a spell. There's a supernatural quality where people can't see things. They sincerely can't see things. Their vision1:06:15
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is clouded. Do you think that that phenomenon exists now?1:06:20
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Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Evil is real. The Catholic Church sees evil personified in Satan and his demons.1:06:30
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Christ has has I mean Satan has no power really. But we individual human beings1:06:38
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and any group of human beings when we give into ignoring the truth we really1:06:46
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are giving into the power of evil. And and like you're alluding to, Tucker, I mean, that's why thankfully1:06:55
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God clearly tells us through his son and in in other passages, even in the Old Testament, we are not to judge each1:07:03
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other. We are not the judges. We are to make judgments about what is true, but we're not to judge the individual1:07:12
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person. Um and I think that that's where we have to always remember because you know the the atrocities that happen and1:07:21
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that doesn't mean what we just say well you know I out of respect for this person I need to allow this to happen or allow myself to be attacked that is not1:07:30
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what we're talking about but we do have to always acknowledge when it comes down to judging the person we should simply1:07:39
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not do it and acknowledge that Maybe there is evil that and and I truly1:07:47
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believe that the the delusion of evil has many by the gra in its grasp in the1:07:55
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world today. We all have the obligation to to set ourselves free from that to to1:08:02
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see the light and to make the choice to turn from it. But I know that can become very difficult, seemingly impossible.1:08:10
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Um, and I think that really as we we talk about all of this, Carl Tucker, we1:08:19
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I believe it again it comes down to basic human choices. The the the world1:08:26
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leader that is deciding this is justified because I have decided this1:08:33
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this and this. It it comes down to and and I again I think of us as individual1:08:39
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sinners when we sin we've simply decided I know better in this it it you know we1:08:47
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we explain it away we make rationalizations but what at the heart of it is yes this is what the world says1:08:56
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is true but I know better figured it out I know better and I think that that's where you know the atrocities in Gaza,1:09:06
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they they are they are actively working to hide those1:09:13
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and to to squatchch any voice that dares to speak up about innocents lives being1:09:20
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destroyed because it threatens their I know better attitude. It threatens that1:09:29
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truth that they're trying to create. We can all try to create our own truth, but it doesn't exist really. And that is1:09:37
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what we have to always be humble enough to acknowledge. And we have to pray that world leaders will be people whose1:09:45
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hearts are open because they've got the power to do drastically, devastatingly1:09:53
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destructive things like we've witnessed in Gaza, what we're witnessing in Lebanon. Um, I mean, very little is1:10:01
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spoken about some of these things because the powers that be don't want that truth spoken because it threatens1:10:11
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their false scenario. And so it it really is as basic as that. Um but I1:10:19
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think there are forces uh worldly and supernatural of evil that I mean just1:10:28
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like when you know when evil tries to cancel a voice of truth in our culture1:10:36
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um certainly in the supernatural realm Satan and his minions are trying to do the same thing. I mean the St. Michael1:10:44
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prayer that we offer as Catholics is rooted in acknowledging that basic reality and not seeing a demon around1:10:52
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every corner but acknowledging that evil is real. Evil has its power when we give it power. And that's why we have to1:11:00
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prayerfully turn to the truth. I urge everyone to do that. And if you aren't a1:11:07
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believer to at least I mean hopefully to somewhat being sane is to embrace the1:11:15
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truth. I mean to to a definition of insanity is to say well I I'm going to ignore what's true and just go into my fantasy world. Sometimes that happens.1:11:26
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But if we are people who are rational then rationality means based in the truth. And we all have an obligation to to find the truth, to speak the truth,1:11:38
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and to live the truth.1:11:41
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My my final question is about persecution, which you've alluded to,1:11:46
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and you've said um Jesus was murdered for telling the truth. That was the main threat he posed, the fact that he was1:11:54
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the embodiment of truth. And that that principle stands and that people who it's not the liars who are punished,1:12:00
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it's people who tell the truth. So if we accept that we're clearly in a new kind of world where trends are accelerating,1:12:08
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you would have to think that persecution will intensify specifically of Christians and I and I think it is. I1:12:16
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think it's what we're watching. Um do you believe that? And if you do, how should Christians respond to persecution?1:12:26
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Well, um, Tucker, I do believe that I mean it's it's very clear. I believe1:12:33
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that that faith any really any stance for truth,1:12:42
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the real truth um is being persecuted because the powers of chaos, the powers of that1:12:51
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false message are growing um and gaining influence.1:12:58
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Um, what what is our response as Christians? Well, it, you know, I guess it sounds pretty simplistic, but we stay1:13:08
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with the truth. We don't compromise. We don't become violent in the face of violence. We don't embrace hatred. I mean, I think that,1:13:19
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you know, it it probably is one of the most powerful things we1:13:24
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can do is seek to truly love our neighbor. Um,1:13:31
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y and certainly, I mean, Christ tells us,1:13:36
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"Love God with all your heart, mind, and soul, and your neighbor as yourself."1:13:40
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The great commandment. But I think that we need to put that into practice by not1:13:47
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giving in to the hate. No matter how much we are persecuted, no matter how1:13:53
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much hatred is thrown at us, and we have great examples in in our Catholic faith,1:14:00
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in the saints of the ages, so many of the saints and and Christ himself says,1:14:05
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"If they hate you, remember they hated me first." What is persecution about?1:14:12
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We're persecuted when they hate what we're doing. They hate who we are. They hate what we're saying. And so, we're in1:14:19
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good company with Christ himself. How did Christ respond? He didn't waver from1:14:26
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the truth, but he didn't violently fight back either. Um, that is I I think the1:14:35
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basic reaction we should have. We should trust in the power of the truth. Um,1:14:42
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yes, we can be eliminated. We can be assassinated in this world and it happens. But the truth1:14:52
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continues to prevail. And if as Christ died in service to the truth,1:15:01
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he was the truth and he died for the truth. Um if it comes to that we shouldn't seek that our lives are1:15:09
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valuable but if it comes to that then we who believe in the truth should should1:15:18
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you know be the martyrs be willing if it if it if that's what it takes to stand for the truth that I sacrifice my life1:15:26
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in this world it begins to remind us that life is not limited to this world.1:15:34
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We believe in everlasting life. The salvation of souls is what the church,1:15:39
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the Catholic Church exists for. It may not always look like that through history and in our time because too many1:15:45
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voices seem to be too worried about this world, but ultimately to be alive is to1:15:54
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have eternal life with God. And so sacrificing this earthly life if it comes to that and we should I I've1:16:03
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always loved the example of St. Thomas Moore. He was a great lawyer. He was a great mind and he did everything he1:16:11
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could to keep from losing his life in this world. But ultimately he knew that1:16:19
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if he had to sacrifice his life in this world, he could look to eternal life with God in heaven. And he says that to1:16:28
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his own daughter um to we shall merily meet in heaven. That has to be our1:16:34
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attitude as well. Not wantingly and easily allowing our lives to be destroyed. That is not respectful of the1:16:42
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treasure of our life that God has given us. We should desire to be here as long1:16:49
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as God gives us breath. But when that ends and we if we we lose that life1:16:57
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because we've stood for the truth, then we're in good company. Um, so the Christian's response to persecution1:17:05
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should ultimately to be willing and to be strengthened and to strengthen each other to stand with the truth come what may.1:17:16
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Amen. Bishop Strickland, thank you very much for taking this time. That was great. Thank you, Tucker. God bless you.1:17:24
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God bless you. |
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